[Crm-sig] Issue, propositional object scope note

João Oliveira joaoli13 at gmail.com
Sat Apr 19 02:25:36 EEST 2008

Dear Martin and CIDOC CRM experts,

My concerning is about the subsumption relationship that exists between 'P67
refers to (is referred to by)' and 'P129 is about (is subject of)'
properties. I think the latter is not a subproperty of the former.

To justify my opinion, I will use two sources: one from Philosophy and
another from Library/Information Science.

The domain and image of these two properties are the same: E73 Information
Object (or E89 Propositional Object) and E1 CRM Entity respectively. At the
end of this message there is the current P67 and P129 scope notes.

In "Philosophy Without Ambiguity: A Logico-linguistic Essay / Atlas, J. D."
(p. 102) we can find the following:


"for his (Russell) present propositional ABOUTNESS is a primitive concept;
and as it is for purposes of explanation a basic notion, it would be
desirable eventually to reduce it, by an appropriate definition, to even
more fundamental notions, though he does not know what such notions are. It
is clear, however, that such notions are not 'term', 'mention', or
'reference' which have instead been characterized in term of 'aboutness'.
Russell continues:

<quote>"And we distinguish between 'A is the father of B' and 'Fatherhood
holds between A and B': the latter, but not the former, is ABOUT fatherhood
as well as A and B, and asserts, while the former does not, a relation of
fatherhood to A and B. Hence, although, at first sight, the difference might
seem to be a merely subjective difference of emphasis, it results that there
is a real LOGICAL difference [emphasis added]"</quote>


>From this quotation, it's clear that (from the logico-linguistic point of
view) the 'reference' could be characterized by 'aboutness' but not the

The P129 Scope Note make a reference to the "sense of 'aboutness' used in
library science". I think this definition should be reconsidered to a
specific sense because it's possible to find a lot of 'aboutness'
definitions in Library Scince. For example, in 'The Intellectual Foundation
of Information Organization / Elaine Svenonius' (p. 46-7) it's possible to
find incompatible 'aboutness' definitions from Bill Marron vs. Christopher
Fox & Terry Norreault vs. Brian Vickery vs. Patrick Wilson. The latter
"rejects the (grammatical) model on the grounds that it is not possible to
generalize from the aboutness of individual sentences in a document to the
aboutness of the document as a whole".

So, I think that CIDOC CRM (in the light of FRBRoo concepts) should offer a
more precise P129 Scope Note (or "the 'aboutness' must be define without
'references' to external sources" :-), and should drop the subsumption
relationship between P67 and P129.


Joao Oliveira

PS. More information about 'aboutness' and Patrick Wilson's aboutness
definition at [
http://www.db.dk/bh/Core%20Concepts%20in%20LIS/articles%20a-z/subject.htm ]


P129 is about (is subject of) - Scope Note

"This property identifies a E1 CRM Entity that is the subject of an E73
Information Object, in the sense of "aboutness" used in library science.
This differs from P67 refers to (is referred to by), which refers to an E1
CRM Entity, in that it describes the primary subject or subjects of the E73
Information Object."

P67 refers to (is referred to by) - Scope Note

"An E73 Information Object may refer to any other E1 CRM Entity.

This property documents that an E73 Information Object makes a statement
about an instance of an E1 CRM Entity. P67refers to (is referred to by) has
the P67.1 has type link to an instance of E55 Type. This is intended to
allow a more detailed description of the type of reference. This differs
from P129 is about (is subject of), which describes the primary subject or
subjects of the E73 Information Object."

On Thu, Apr 17, 2008 at 3:45 PM, martin <martin at ics.forth.gr> wrote:

> Dear All,
> Attached a proposal of a scope note for E89 Propositional Object. This
> class would
> allow us to model the distinction of symbolic form and conceptual content
> on top of
> E73 Information Object, which combines both.
> Best
> martin
> --
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>  Dr. Martin Doerr              |  Vox:+30(2810)391625        |
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